George Martin should have bitch slapped John

for saying he wasn't happy with the way any of his Beatle's songs turned out. 'Strawberry Field' and 'Walrus' are considered great in a large part because of the production that GM brought to them. Seems John always loved to bite the hands that fed him (George Martin and Paul).

<< for saying he wasn't happy with the way any of his Beatle's songs turned out. >>

It's not at all uncommon for artists to feel dissatisfied w/work the rest of us think is great.

The 'Nutcracker' composer (sorry too lazy to look up exact spelling) hated 'Nutcracker' for ex.

What's 'bitch slapped' mean? Why not just 'slapped'?

Unfortunately, your simple-mind failed to comprehend what Lennon said. He said nothing critical of Martin's role about these songs ... what he simply said was that: 'as far as I'm concerned I'm dissatisfied with every f**king record that I ever made including all of 'The Beatles' and all my own. But that's the artistic trip isn't it? to make the next one the best.'

The point is, Lennon never felt either he or 'The Beatles' made the perfect song or the perfect album ... which is a refeshingly down-to-earth sentiment in this shallow age of: nostalgia-obsessives, narcissistic self-promoters / self-admirers legacy-embellishers.

Being a perfectionist ... eschewing 'hype' ... and -not- resting on your laurels - is a GOOD thing (and vital for true artistic development) .

It seems also, though, that John was dissatisfied with the final results of many of his Beatles songs because they didn't come out in the end the way he heard them in his head in the beginning. In a way, it's too bad that he didn't try to re-record some of these once he was out on his own in his solo career. But on the other hand, such releases surely would have been met with disappointment. I think it's pretty natural to feel that your songs were best as you first envisioned them and that subsequent input from others in a joint effort (heh) detracted from the original, but judging JL's output with- and post-Beatles, I'm glad for the input the others had 1962-69. It would have been terribly interesting to hear some of the 'remakes' that could have happened, though.

'Terribly' interesting I think just about nails it. Can you imagine a 'Mind Games' era remake of 'Strawberry Fields Forever' (the original recording one he felt liberties had been taken with)? Ewwwwww!

It is impossible to know exactly what John's complaints were about ... but here is some interpretation-speculation on my part:

1) Strawberry Fields was recorded several times. It looks, judging from some of the early demos, like it got a little bit ratty at the end (druming, etc.) . I think John envisioned a psychedelic (mellotron, etc.), trippy .. but yet very gentle type of song - and the band got a little out of control in the studio. The final result was a merging of two mixes and separate arrangments. I think Lennon would have been happier with the spirit of the dreamy opening verse ... carried on throughout .. but break downs kept occurring (at which point he appealed to Martin for a separate arrangement).

2) He was also very dissasitifed with the recording of 'Across The Universe' because he felt he got no real support or interest from the others in doing the song (you can actually see this ... in the 'Let It Be' film where Paul yawns and plays 'boogie' on the bass - as John tries to do the song). 'Across The Universe' was great 'raw material' for a classic song .. but something is missing in the spirit and feel behind it ... an indication that the band was -not- 'together' on this. On one take, amatuer background were used (singing out of tune) and the tape appears sped-up, on the other, the tape was slowed-down and the production 'clutered'.

3) In my opinion, 'Dear Prudence' suffers from the same type of problem where it is a great song, great guitar arrangment ... yet the band breaks down at the end - and you have this out-of-control piano & druming dominating the song ... rather than the fluid & flowing guitars.

John vented his frustration at this in 1980 .. and referred to Paul's 'loose and casual' attitude (with his songs) as attempts to sabotage them or deny them their best realization. This, of course, can't be proven without putting a lie detector test on Paul .... but it does appear that several of these songs of John's ... start out absolutely great and then the arrangement or the session sort of 'breaks down' into a sloppy, loose type of disintegration.

'We'd spend hours doing little clean-ups to some of Paul's songs ... but when it was one of mine .. especially a great one ... somehow this atmosphere of loosness and casualness would creep in. Subconcious sabotage, he'll deny it because he has a bland face .. but it's the absolute truth.' - John Lennon

This can, in fact, be heard in the songs (in question) themselves and what I believe was the essence of John's complaint.

I agree ... because I feel that George Martin was a great producer and helped to capture John's sensibility in a way .. that Phil Spector or others really could not. On the other hand, John often gave Martin direction ( .. albeit vague at times ) and thematic context to work around. A creative chemistry existed between John and Martin that I think was quite magical and special.

Martin was not a 'rock and roll' guy .. but a classical-music guy which, I think, created some natural tension and disconnect between he and John. However, it worked to great effect with John's songs particularly circa: 1966 - 1968, although, perhaps .. for other songs .. such as 'In My Life' Lennon would have rather had a Sax solo .. instead of that Bach-like piano solo .. in the middle break.

Very true, but...

Right on target, imo. I've long suspected that Paul got along better with GMartin (and GMartin with Paul) because they shared that interest in music other than R&R, whereas JL didn't. GMartin definitely found it easier to communicate with PMcC on specifics, but he was also great in bringing out some of the genius that was hiding in JL's songs. I've often wondered what Walls & Bridges would sound like had GMartin produced it.

2) He was also very dissasitifed with the recording of 'Across The Universe' because he felt he got no real support or interest from the others in doing the song (you can actually see this ... in the 'Let It Be' film where Paul yawns and plays 'boogie' on the bass - as John tries to do the song). 'Across The Universe' was great 'raw material' for a classic song .. but something is missing in the spirit and feel behind it ... an indication that the band was -not- 'together' on this. On one take, amatuer background were used (singing out of tune) and the tape appears sped-up, on the other, the tape was slowed-down and the production 'clutered'.

You're missing one key point about the Let It Be film performance of the song, Derek: 'Across The Universe' had, by that point, been around for well over a year. It had initially been earmarked for a double EP release of Yellow Submarine that never materialized. If Paul seems bored with the song, it's not surprising

Thanks for the response .... just a few comments.

Which raises the question why couldn't they get a satisfying recording together at an earlier point: was it due to lack of clarity on John's part, 'looseness and casulness' that John spoke of .. undoing a promising initial effort, lack of interest from the others, etc. I can easily imagine it being a combination of each of these things - with the track 'break downs', however, being the most frustrating component to John - in getting the song off the ground.

True ... but the disatisfaction may have still been there .. that could not be fixed by a simple remix (e.g. drums and/or piano tied together with the main tracks). So, it may have gone out the way it did - because the 'looseness' at the end here .. did not justfy (from a practicle standpoint) a whole new re-record from scratch process - yet still on an artistic level ... left a bad taste about the recording of the song (from a cooperative standpoint) and acheiving its best realization.

Agree

Agree

Which required perhaps a more dedicated level of teamwork spirit and cooperation level than what may have always took place.

Agree ... again.

I think John did like it a lot .. utlimately. I used it as an example, though, of how Martin and John probably would operate differently .. left to their own devices.

A sax solo like the one in Still Crazy After All These Years would do nicely in In My Life. If you think about it, Still Crazy After All These Years IS In My Life.

I met an old friend on the street last night There are places I'll remember all my life though some have changed

She seemed so glad to see I just smiled Some forever not for better, some are gone and some remain

And we talked about the old times and we drank ourselves some beers All these places have their moments with lovers and friends I still can recall

Still crazy after all these years, oh, still crazy after all these years Some are dead and some are living, In my life I've loved them all.

If you don't think so, sing a Paul Simon line, then go down a paragraph and you can easily sing the subsequent Beatles' line as though it's the next line in the Paul Simon tune. The songs arc the same way.

Timothy J